The Smaller Church - Staying Strong

My guest today is Pastor Joel Defries of Crossroads Community Church in Sechelt, BC Canada. The Corona Virus has affected us all in so many different ways.  As the pastor of a smaller church, Joel talks about how those changes have affected how we do church, and its impact on community and family.

Transcript

spk_0:   0:02
for our very first podcast of life and hope with Danny Mac. We're gonna talk about how the Corona viruses impacted smaller church. Many larger triggers have had the facilities to broadcast their services all the time. But now we've had a change with Corona virus and many smaller churches who not had to do that before. I've had to make that adjustment. Today, as we start this podcast series, we want to talk with the pastor of a small church who has had to make some of those big adjustments and is doing it very well. Welcome to our podcast day. It's good to have you with us. And with me today I have the Reverend the right Reverend Uh, Joel Defreeze, who is pastor of Crossroads Community Trick in seashell. Welcome toll. Hey,

spk_1:   0:50
everybody thinks

spk_0:   0:52
it's good to have you here and you've been my pastor now for about five years, I think, Uh, but has it been longer? Not now. I can't even recall by every 65 or

spk_1:   1:02
six somewhere in there

spk_0:   1:03
somewhere in there. So we've gotten any week, other a little bit. We work together for the last while, and, uh, with this pandemic this virus that we're dealing with right now, We're certainly seeing some changes in how we do ministry. And we're seeing some things happening in people's lives that we weren't expecting and we haven't had to work through before. So this gives us all sorts of new challenges and opportunities along the way. And so how are you feeling in the midst of all of this right now? Go.

spk_1:   1:31
You know, don't I really like the way that you put it there? Challenges and opportunities right on. And I think as soon as you shift your perspective in the scene opportunities than, um then it it just it creates more movement. It creates on more, uh, more opportunity for the gospel eso we've We've had to shift where we're meeting. I mean, we've actually done a couple of shifts. We went from the theater where we normally need back to our are smaller chapel and then had everybody that was normally in those leadership roles worship, check all those things hosting come to CMC and then and then we had to even shifted further as the as the gathering sizes. Essentially, we're were limited,

spk_0:   2:14
so you're in a constant state of change right now is that is the whole issue that we're facing.

spk_1:   2:19
Yeah, absolutely not. The change, the change.

spk_0:   2:21
We're gonna come back to the truth because that's where I want. And mystery. That's what I want to spend most of our time here. But I know you've had some stuff, even with your family. You had a son that was down in Guatemala on a mission strip, and he was having trouble getting home.

spk_1:   2:36
That's right. Yeah. Yeah, he was down there with the CMU group. Maybe a minute. I university. And they were there on the second half of the year, which was, Ah, three months in Guatemala, working with various organizations and serving and, uh, traveling. And at the end, when when it was starting to get worse serious, they booked a flight, and then the Guatemalan president just close the borders down, eliminate any any spread of covert 19. And so they were. They were stuck there. It's like there for a couple weeks. Dad, I think they were in some kind of a small hostile, um, and so no movement for that time. And, uh, and then finally there was Ah, there was some conversations that happened and the government got involved and they were able to send a plane down. And I believe there still may be some Canadians down there, so I'm not sure exactly what's happening right now. But Malka and his friends that were on that trip were ableto make their way home.

spk_0:   3:35
So he's home. He's safe. He's in quarantine. Are or some isolation?

spk_1:   3:39
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, back as And he's he's healthy right now. There's no no sign. So we're grateful that he's back.

spk_0:   3:49
That's good. That's great. Glad that he's home. So let's get back to the Puritan to ministry and the things that you're experiencing with. With that along the way, it's how has this whole process you mentioned a little bit about the social distancing and everything else that's affected? How we do church, which is pretty well, I am guessing almost worldwide at this point in the effects of that. But how? How has that affected you and having to go from, um to go to the place where now your your whole ministry is basically basically online? Ah, you're doing trying to do everything from from a video on Sunday mornings or a live presentation, however, works in the process. How is that? How you feeling about that? And what's the adjustments that you had to make to be able to get that done within yourself?

spk_1:   4:41
Yeah. Great question. I mean, there's so many different elements and factors that are that are involved, and it's not necessarily the most important. But the first was how how do we actually gather? Even in a virtual sense. And so there was Ah, there was a bit of ah, um adjustment over the last three weeks. Now we're gonna be I'm at least the last two weeks. Will will have been in the same place. But when all of this started happening, uh, our tech guy Well, let's just get practice. Let's try a Facebook lives. We just had a single single iPhone. I believe it was from the back, and we did Facebook live, and there were some people who were able Teoh park estate in service. And that was great when we thought Okay, well, we think that we're gonna be OK. They're talking about maybe taking gatherings. I'm down from 500 down to 2 50 somewhere there. And so, uh, all of a sudden it got tighter and tighter. So we moved everybody to our smaller chapel, moved all the gear from the feeder to the chapel, which is Ah, is an adventure in itself.

spk_0:   5:48
And then you get set

spk_1:   5:49
up and then you go from looking out and seeing seeing a bunch of people that your friends, your church family, um, so looking into into a camera, we had a bit of a hitch trying to host your church website because everybody's doing that right now. So there's so much, um, so much traffic

spk_0:   6:11
worldwide glut at 10 o'clock in the morning, I think is what helps.

spk_1:   6:16
Yeah, that ever. And so, um, so

spk_0:   6:19
that

spk_1:   6:20
went that went off fairly well. We knew we had some adjustments. And then we just saw the gathering size shrinking and shrinking again and realized, Hey, we've actually got to get this somewhere. Uh, actually, it's got

spk_0:   6:32
to

spk_1:   6:32
get up Teoh at out our place. It's in our shop in a garage right now. And so getting that set up was, uh was again. Another adventure

spk_0:   6:44
is not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, I think Apple started in a garage, so yeah, you know, you could you could be some pretty big come out of this along the way. We have to see it, right? But it isn't just what that's for sure.

spk_1:   6:58
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, just getting set up in here, trying to figure out lighting important when people try to see you on screen. But make sure you've got all the right on the right cameras on getting it from the camera into the editing salt at all that stuff. And I've intentionally kind of stayed back and get my hands off of it. But no, no, I have to be involved in. So figuring out how do we get these massive files And they could be edited? Um, so I mean, I'm talking a lot of the technological side. Then there's the side of communicating with people and And how do you do that and keep in touch with people? No.

spk_0:   7:40
Let me just stop you there. The second I know that communicating is is particularly when your pastor, in your ministering from the pool, but ah, great majority of your communicating is what you are seeing, Register or not register, sometimes of from from the ministry position And so you don't have that kind of reaction or almost immediate feedback, if you will, at this point, when you're doing it. So So how have you adjusted to that? It's a

spk_1:   8:10
pretty abrupt switch. Yeah, that that you're making there. Ah, and so I mean, I'm doing my best, as were your story as as and in the moment of training, sensitive to God, trying to really follow where he's leading on drawing, uh, tryingto they even even more so said even in the past, while I've been trying to step away from being attached to notes, but even more so, I'm just leaning into the having the preparation, done knowing essentially where I want to go but then been leading and trusting us as I go along the way. Um and then and then probably one of the more awkward thing is watching yourself and listening to yourself when you go to church with everybody else on one Sunday morning, right?

spk_0:   8:59
So one of the things that there's there's been active in some debate about that that's come through is that some people have said that because there's no longer this gathering of people in the churches that there is actually for active gonna lose people away from The trick is they're gonna, you know, find other things to do on Sunday morning if or however you want to state it and then there are others. They're saying this time because of what we're facing with this virus, with the challenges that there are that we're finding a greater number of people pressing into wanting to find out more. They're turning back to their faith to things that they may have had in their lives at some point in time, but have drifted away from what are you seeing and what are you hearing as you're going through this process of now ministering online, basically with just a camera guy or whatever in front of you and nobody else around to. And you're in that position now when before you had the church full of people, what's your sense now and what's happening?

spk_1:   10:02
I think one of the one of the goals of our church one of the ways that we've been trying to shift and move, is as moving from being a church where everybody knows every everybody on becoming a church where everybody is known and really, in order for that to be experienced, people have to be connected into community groups and smaller groups. There. On DSO, that's been, ah, big effort, a big push for the last number of years on where we've been been trying to move. And so again, you mentioned the start of this challenge is an opportunity. I think this is one of the great opportunities for our groups to still gather for people who make you were on the fence toe, actually, um, connect intergroup and gather online gather. I'm virtually where you can meet with with a zoom or a Skype call or something like that and still stay. Stay connected and and I see I see opportunity and we're actually seeing even a fruit where people are. I know of one person, specifically who I'm, since all this started within the last three weeks has given there their life to Jesus on, Um, that's amazing. I heard of another person. It was just yesterday we were talking, who said that they shared. They invited family members toe watch church, and the family members wouldn't necessarily come to church normally, but they watch church. Andi said They were inspired by it. And so I I just see a ton of opportunity here.

spk_0:   11:31
What? And that's that's so so rich and so powerful because there are a lot of people who probably would never come on Sunday mornings to a church. But, you know, in this situation they can sit down and on online they can. They don't have to even leave their house. But they can still hear and respond to these words of encouragement truth, particularly at this time right now, when when people they need to have some hope. They need to have some encouragement in where they are in their lives and what we're facing.

spk_1:   11:59
Yeah, absolutely.

spk_0:   12:00
When this is sort of all over with, when we get this virus behind us and we will, by the grace of God, get this behind us when this is over, what do you think that we will have learned along the way?

spk_1:   12:16
I hope that the in these times you become deeply aware of what you value, uh, end and the things that are essentially eternal and temporal, and and so I hope that there will be some some somewhat of an anchoring experience that happens that people are able to take with them so that they they don't just Okay, that's the finest me shipped back to exactly the way things were before, but oh, yeah, This this brought to light that that I was fixated on having things over, getting stuff, and that's actually not important who God is and that he's the centering piece is important. Who? The community around us and being connected and being able to come alongside each other. Those are the pieces that that we wanna move forward. So I'm hopeful that that that will be something that we take as's faras ministry. I I don't I started to wonder how this will shape, uh, how we do ministry in the future S O. Obviously, we'll go back to gathering generally, But you look at there's there, some churches who this is, uh this has happened and

spk_0:   13:26
they

spk_1:   13:26
have not skipped a beat because they were already in a place of of recording, if not streaming, pre recording and having those pieces set up on. So you see some of the smaller creatures like us who are doing a bit of catch up on and actually seeing that it's possible to minister in this way.

spk_0:   13:47
There's going to be that blood on Sunday mornings at 10 o'clock to continue their You think that's gonna

spk_1:   13:51
get That's right.

spk_0:   13:52
That's going to stay there

spk_1:   13:53
with Great. Yeah, So I mean, I I wonder about that.

spk_0:   13:58
What about you personally, What do you think's gonna what's gonna change in in your ministry? Ah, and your perception of of ministry and you, even in your perception of our faith, plays out in these things. What's what's going to be changed or strengthened, um, or lessened as as we go through.

spk_1:   14:18
Yeah. Good question. I think what will be strengthened is, uh I mean, I might think what will be strengthened is my desire to to be gathered. Teoh actually continue to come together. Yeah, being the church, I think that that will be strengthened because there's such deep importance. I think engaging in and really utilizing technology a significant ministry tool will be something that this strengthened as well. When you have opportunity to press more and ah, and have more people hear about God loves of them, why why wouldn't we go after that? Right. But I would say those would be a few things

spk_0:   15:05
you think those connections that we make now you think that most, um, will be able to keep continuing on with our You think thats going, we're gonna fade back and pull back to the way we were before.

spk_1:   15:17
Yeah, I hope I hope that we will be able Teoh, engage and keep those connections. I imagine there will be some some fading. Uh, but but I I'm hopeful that will be ableto and it's you can always reach back. This is Ah, this is a great moment in time that everybody will share. It's a common ground. You remember when remember when we were isolated? Remember when this happened? And all the sudden people are right back into that moment and remembering about the values and the important things

spk_0:   15:51
well, and so if if we're in this place where we're seeing that you know, these these changes air taking and and occurring in people's lives, they're becoming or desiring to become more connected than their stretching out. We still have a lot of people in our community to which we got, uh, they're struggling to connect. And I'm thinking right now I know just off the top of my head. Five or six different seniors that are part of my connection circle out there who are, shall we call technically challenged eso the process of Facebook and Zoom and Skype and feast time and all of those things to them. They don't have that do you don't have that ability right now. And if they know some of tried and they keep pressing the wrong button, man and in this case, it just, you know, it doesn't work for them. Uh, how can we connect with them? And how can what's? What's the best way do you think of those people around us that are have these challenges that they've got? And then there's the other group, another group to That's the people that don't have the technology at all. And there's some people out there that are still like that. You know, I was talking to one this morning and asked him if he had face time on his phone. He says No, we still has a flip phone, and so I I'm just like, OK, even texting is going to be an interesting one with a fellow. The flip flop. But how? How do you see what we need to do in terms of connecting with these people around us, even now, and that may continue on for us.

spk_1:   17:25
Yeah, that I think that's a great question, and that's one that we've been talking about within the leadership is how do we reach out and still so holding on to that idea where where we want to be, a church where everybody is known and so anybody her has the capacity to connect in that technical way, Then we're really encouraging them to really be in a community group, get blood in there for the people that you're talking about. We started to do a few things. One is just kind of make sure basic needs are met on. So wherever there is relationship or tapping shoulders and saying it, can you make sure that you're reaching out with these people in just the basic ways? And I've made a few phone calls just to check in on people. Things like Ah are Children's pastor has been a really great job of trying to connect some of the Children in her ministry with some of these seniors, and so they've been writing cards and then she'll take them and drop them off on their doorstep, just just in order to keep them communicated with and and in touch. One idea additional idea I have that we haven't. We haven't released it yet. Those figure out if we can find an old stump, some some kind of iPad on where we could have, ah, process of sterilization on, then a way to get it to the person so that they could just just press play and then be part of the service watching the pick part of the worship and then watch the message and be connected that way. Just they keep that, um, that's high towards towards God and with one another as well. So those are a few things that we're looking at. And still I'm still trying to figure out exactly how do we in a world where we're essentially being told to stay, stay and keep to yourself? How do we how do we actually stay together?

spk_0:   19:20
It seems so contrary to the basic concepts and principles of our walk with God to say, I'm gonna stay away from people. Yeah, exactly. It since it just doesn't seem to fit with and it doesn't fit with what we feel God's called us to do. How do you think the church as a whole? Not necessarily our church. But the church as a whole is doing in responding to people right now. In the midst of this,

spk_1:   19:45
of what I what? I hear what I see. Ah, And when I talked to other pastors around is I think the majority of people really are rising up and seeing opportunity really toe live and be the light that Jesus called us to be in a community. And so just doing a lot of the things that we're talking about and even even serving. So our church is part of, Ah, some other people in churches who are serving in the in the local grocery store. And then we've got other people who are delivering those groceries, and I think you can you can see you just see generally when you walk by somebody or you drive by somebody, you'll wave. Whereas before you didn't and that's all

spk_0:   20:30
of a

spk_1:   20:30
sudden are are everything's checking for us, our value, they're shifting. And I were in this place where all of a sudden recognize Oh, there's something about and and I believe it's because every human beings made in the image of God, it's just not every human being has yet tapped into the fullness that comes with Jesus. And so I think I think this is the great opportunity for the church. And I believe, back to your question. I believe largely the church is doing an amazing job, Uh, stepping into those rules.

spk_0:   21:03
Well, we may be doing a lot of things. Well, is there anything that you can think of that? What are the things that you could think of that we meet? We should be doing better,

spk_1:   21:13
I think, grabbing onto every interaction every moments. I think there's they're still climbs where? Fear of what? What would somebody think if I were to approach them even from distance, or invite them Teoh to be part of this or harassment? They can pray. I think there's reluctance there, so I think continuing to press in that way because it's it's not. It's not often we have opportunities like this on, so I would say that would be one. I think coming alongside further and more organizations, um, in ways that we can just seeing if there's a way that we conserve fall into your I think those would be just a few ways that we could do things a little better.

spk_0:   21:58
In times like these we we we learn Ah, lot as well. We're And I know you are your learner. You keep you keep feeding yourself And in these these learning processes Now, as we're going through here, what what are some of the things that you are learning about your yearly about God and you're learning about yourself? What are some of the things that you're learning along the way?

spk_1:   22:23
Um, that verse from, uh, second Peter, where? Where he talks about God not being slow, but, uh, but taking time because his heart is for everybody he turned towards. And that that's one that just keeps pressing along on me right now in these days. And so I think just just learning, um, of God's heart or for people, for all people in his desire for people, Teoh step not only into relationship with step into fullness. I feel like it's a season where I'm learning more about that. And it seems that everywhere that I'm impressing into in personal study or even study for I'm speaking right now. There's something significant about our faith. Uh, and, uh, and overcoming about overcoming fear rings out. And so I would say that that's a place where where I'm I'm learning and it's It's a really great now, right? It's it's really could you turn the media on and it's good to be aware of what's going on, but it's just a in fear,

spk_0:   23:36
you know, It'll it'll pull you down into the dumps faster than anything else. Right now, let me tell you, you mentioned something about pressing in. Uh, and what exactly do you mean by pressing in?

spk_1:   23:49
I know what I mean by pressing in is, uh, is is coming back and coming back coming back on And really, um, orienting yourself at the at the start of your day. But throughout your day, towards towards God and so in every moment you're really becoming aware of God's presence. It's hard not only for you, but for wherever you're at and whoever you're wet and however you moving there. And I think that's just a Nintendo sh inal. Intentional turning or pressing in right? It's so often Ah, fear rises up, and so we we turn away or we we hold back from pressing in. But when we overcome that fear or doubt, or whatever it is, we overcome it by pressing into dog, which gives us access, I believe, into into new areas and new new places.

spk_0:   24:50
Some people are trying to hang on to what they believe God is saying and what God is doing for them. But I've heard from a couple of people that I keep praying and keep believing, and nothing's changing. There's no you know, where it's it's getting worse instead of getting better on. And you know, the death rate still goes up and they're putting more and more restrictions. And every time I turn on the news, they're scaring me more and more. It doesn't seem to getting better. No matter how hard I praise what what can we What can you say? That there was those folks?

spk_1:   25:22
Yeah, I would say I would say, Don't don't give up. Don't Don't stop praying. Um and you're right in the middle of it. You're right in the thick of it on. So I might ask that person, Have you ever been in a difficult situation before and you have. Have you ever arrived on the other side of the difficult situation on? Most people have had an experience like that. Ah, and then And then you can ask just just what if you were to have known in the middle what the end would be like all of a sudden they can have a little glimpse of that and then realize that right now they're in the middle of it? Um, well, it just popped into mind as well done is there is this guy John member who started the vineyard movements and people would come to him and say, Hey, I've been praying and putting a praying for people, and they're just not getting killed. It's just not happening on John said. I gold pray for 1000 people or not. You prayed for thousands. People don't come back and talk to me on. And so I think that's where we just have to. Um, I make sure that our hope is fixed on God because that's the only place looking in the future, that that is good. And then we activate our faith by really believing in the fulfillment of that hope, and then we don't give up, right? We just We we keep going after we keep pressing in, um, and trusting on. So sometimes you gotta figure out. OK, what what's the doubt? What's the fear about? Is there some kind of a situation or experience where you need that inner healing purse? Um, and that's probably another podcast or two in itself.

spk_0:   27:04
Yeah, it is indeed. Listen, there's There's also the struggle that people have. I think that because they don't have any control on what's going on, there's Louise. No, there's are some who said this hoarding of toilet paper and other sort of silly things along the way is an attempt by people trying to have some sort of control in the middle of the situation that's going on. You know, we're facing these people that people are facing the situation, not feeling that there is anything that they can do about it on and and so we've got a minister. We have to be able to minister to those people to in some way. So how? How you know what's the way to get to somebody who's feeling so totally out of control? that all that's left for them is panic and fear.

spk_1:   27:54
Yeah, so I think that's a That's a really good question, Dan Ah, people who are in that place of feeling out of control. I think that often there's ah like we were talking about before there's history or experience or things where they being out of control or control has been taken from them. And, um, I think those areas often need Teoh need to receive healing. The only way that they receive healing is is through Jesus and often in relationship with other people. Eso depending on the circumstances situation. Um, I think we've gotta love those people. We've got to create opportunity for God to speak into their lives and ah, and be a bia's best we can an example of what it means Teoh to trust God ultimately with the greater control of our lives. On and really toe have our focus be joining him in the mission that he's called us all to really, which is to reconcile, bring reconciliation between the people and the world, and am

spk_0:   29:04
if you were to have to give somebody say, you know, here's the steps you need to take right now, Have some things that you need to do or to remember or to hang onto if you give, you know, 345 things that would be important. Steps for people. Hang on to what would those be?

spk_1:   29:26
Um, I would say, First of all, I'm slow down.

spk_0:   29:32
Oh, I like that one.

spk_1:   29:33
Yeah, I I think everything going on right now. Um, there is this this feeling of gotta figure it out. I've got to make sure I'm safe. I got a just slow down. Um, second of all, make sure that you're in space where you're, uh, or your present and and listening and communicating with God. And then 3rd 3rd I've I would want it. I would want to know. I don't know what they're hearing from God. So that so that we can be sure that that God's really speaking those things and is instilling hope. Assumes we've got those things. Then the the next steps come naturally, which is to start, start ministering and start serving with people. And then from there, I think that the balance starts to come back. But when you're in a place of panic, I'm really you're relying on yourself to fix it been more than you're looking to God. And there's obviously that's gonna be different scenarios in circumstances that are gonna, um, require different responses himself. If you're being chased by a bear, you should panic. Your body's telling panic and should run away. But if you're sitting and you're listening to a whole bunch of of fearful things and you're becoming trapped and not fear, I think that's it. That requires a different response.

spk_0:   31:00
I really like what you said in those those points two and three, where we have to be quiet and then listen to what God says. We spend a lot of time in situations like this were panicking. We're spending a lot more time talking to God than listening to God, and and I really think that, you know, one of the things that we've got to do and you mentioned is that we have to stop and listen a whole lot more than we talk right now to him and and let let him give to us. It's begin to us. He is peace and that we need right now because it's it's not gonna come from within us that's for sure. Yeah, it's gonna come from him. I thought that was a great Yeah. Exactly. Okay, Pastor Joel, any last words before we we wrap it up today?

spk_1:   31:47
Ah, yeah. I would just say, um, if you know Jesus, this is This is the time and opportunity. Really? Where? God, God wants the museum to be a light in the world for step into that. And if you don't know Jesus, this is a time where God is calling out to you and inviting you into relationship. So I would just encourage you to reach out to the church around you, turn near you on, get connected. They're connected to God, get connected to the community. Even in this virtual time, they're still connection.

spk_0:   32:21
Great. That's wonderful, Joel. Thank you. And thank you for being with me today. My guest today has been Pastor Jewell to freeze from crossroads community trick in C shelter and you can catch our messages and from our church Sunday mornings at 10 a.m. At crossroads seashell dot com. You check those out as we are going live along with almost everybody else around the world at 10 a.m. On Sunday mornings. So you're welcome to join us and check that out as well. But Pastor Gil, thank you so much for being with me today and thank you. All our listeners has been good to have you with us. Have a great day. We'll talk again soon. Standing back. Thank you for joining with us today. And be sure to join us every Tuesday for right here for life and hope with Danny Mac.